Mormon Scientologists for Jehovah on the 7th Day
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Ohg Rea Tone is all or nothing. He is educated and opinionated, more clever than smart, sarcastic and forthright. He writes intuitively - often disregarding rules of composition. Comment on his posts - he will likely respond with characteristic humor or genuine empathy. He is the real-deal.

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Mormon Scientologists for Jehovah on the 7th Day

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Help me out here. In literature we distinguish fantasy from Science Fiction. The distinguishing variable – is it plausible. Do the premises set forth in the story violate basic principles of physics? Like a two ton dragon flying with a ten foot wing span – probably fantasy. A space ship flying across the galaxies in the year 25059 – who knows? But what about religion? How do we distinguish legitimate religious organization?

Every parent in America is afraid their child will join a ‘cult.’ Well what exactly is that? How do we qualify legitimacy? Is it merely by numbers? When an organization has more than 50 participants? How about a thousand? Or 10,000,000 – is that enough to qualify as a legitimate faith based organization?

Or is the dependent variable one of ideology or philosophy? The Christian faith was founded by a wandering preacher about 2,000 years ago – They were condemned by government for a couple of hundred years – then accepted as legitimate. The Mormon’s faith was established by Joseph Smith, Jr. in the early 1800’s. They were condemned my many, including government officials, for many years. The Mormons are now generally accepted as being here to stay – if not accepted for their faith.

Tom Cruise and some other celebrity types are hyping the legitimacy of Scientology. That faith was started in the 1950’s by L. Ron Hubbard, a fantasy writer of that time. Does the endorsement of celebrities give legitimacy to the faith? Is it a faith?

So here is my question – Are there generally accepted parameters for establishing legitimacy of a faith based organization?

Readers – help us understand.

There Are 21 Responses So Far. »

  1. Jehovah’s Witnesses are not a cult. The bible is their only inspired writing. They practice what they teach. Jesus is their King, Jehovah is their God and Jesus’ father. Among religions, they deserve respect because they are truely unharmful.

    Tell me one other religion from your list that does not interfere with politics? Whose members do not pick up arms against fellow man?

    Jehovah’s Witnesses are to be thanked for your freedom of speech in America, when they went to Supreme Court countless times. They are to be respected for standing up to the Nazi overlords. And for the harmless people they are.

    On topic: faith should be backed by evidence, not on fairy tales. In scientology they base themselves off alternate realities that they create in their minds with psychological games. There is no historical foundation other than a Science Fiction writer.

    Christian religions with the bible as backbone have a lot of historical evidence speaking for them, and a lot of falsifyable, substantial claims. Therefore they create a basis of legitimacy.

    Mormons added to the bible another scripture, when the bible ended: (some of the last verses of the last book of the bible)

    18 “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.

    Ok so their mormon book is the only document they have, if the bible condemns adding to it after the last book of it.

    The mormon book once again has nothing i know of that is substantial evidence to back up faith. It also contradicts many things in the bible.

    As for other christian bible-backed religions, Jesus said there would be many – but few would actually be worth it. He compared them with trees that are rotten, or bear bad fruits. Look at their deeds .. not at their words. That simple wisdom should be enough to judge by history the legitimacy of religion.

    Finally false religion is depicted as a WHORE in the book of revelation. A Whore because it interferes and is adulterous with politics. (Vatican loved Hitler, now it loves the UN)

    The same book predicts the politics to turn against the whore in the future. It’s no wonder people hate all the hypocracy – look at the rotten immoral works.

    Jesus saw a tree that bared no fruit, and he demanded it to be destroyed – clearly if the bible is God’s word – a lot of religions have no biblical legitimacy to exist.

    Let’s start with “you shall not kill”.
    Then move on to “love your neighbour”.
    Then move on to “do not be a part of this world”.

    I understand your frustration.

    (my words are my own, i dont claim everything i write is correct, that’s up to the reader to judge, and apologize in advance for any mistakes if i got carried away)

  2. That’s laughable that Christian bible-backed religions are somehow more legitimate. All religions are a bunch of hooey balogna and equally cults.

  3. Jerry, your post is laughable. All your words are a bunch of hooey balogna and equally boo.

    Please clarify how this could be in any way constructive?

    My take is, as someone who went to university for many years, that a claim that is impossible to prove wrong, has a very low credibility.

    If a religion backs the bible, then they should be judged by their own works.

    If a religion that backs the bible, enacts upon obvious contradictions in their own proclaimed faith, then it loses all credibility.

    Next, why is the bible more valuable than the hubbard science fiction? While it does not claim to be a scientific writing of itself, it makes hundreds of accurate assertions.
    In the mind of a historian, it provides us with eyewitness accounts of historical events that are proven. In the mind of human studies, it provides pieces of shining wisdom.

    Abusing this book happens all day long, and it got a bad reputation because of it. Despite that, effort made .. the Bible is a masterpiece of human history. Going about interpretation is another story, but even atheists agree that as a historic document, the bible is very valuable.

    I agree that Faith should never be blind.

  4. I know its fashionable to piss on religion nowadays, and i mean that word literally because it happens more every day.

    But one of the things that makes us great as humans, is the ability to look at ourselves and ask questions. Questions such as where do we come from, why are we here, what is our purpose seem common. But what about self reflection in order to make us better husbands, sons, daughters, wives, colleagues?

    Self reflection is one of the base foundations of human spirituality. We see in ourselves kings, creators, artists, poets, comedians, and we are trying to put everything together in a meaningful way.

    The ongoing trend is regrettable, because in the process of laughing at a religious person, one may lose his humanity.
    Too many problems in this world originate from selfish self interest. Without reference to anyone specific, I found that people who care not about others, are the ones bashing spiritual people the most. The world is full of bestial behavior already. It would be a mistake to dismiss a fundamental human self reflective One day you may find out it had value after all.

  5. linked here from Chaz’s HuffPo post on Scientology.

    I can’t belp but think, with all of the recent hoopla surrounding Scientology and the subsequent questioning of religion/religious legitimacy, that only history will be able to tell us what is truly a religion and what is only a flash in the pan “cult.”

    All religions started in the same fashion: someone telling a story. Some of these stories picked up enough momentum that we’re still telling them and living our lives by them thousands of years later. Maybe we’ll have to wait that long to know if this Scientology thing is a legitimate religion (because, really, it’s no stranger than any of the others if you want to be realistic about it.)

  6. Alexander,

    You asked that people do not refer to the Jehovah’s Witnesses as a cult. The LDS church is also frequently refered to as such – also inaccurately.

    As far as the Book of Mormon adding to the word. I ask you to consider another interpretation before you reject the Book of Mormon out of hand: there is a very similar passage in the Old Testament. Consider that John was speaking specifically of HIS book – not the New Testament that was compiled much later than when he penned those words.

    If you believe the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible from your own investigation that is one thing. I would venture a guess that someone told you that, who heard that from someone else, and on and on. I recommend that you yourself investigate the Book of Mormon in a spirit of openness and honesty before God. If you come to the same conclusion thereafter, fine. I hope you would not cast judgment on another faith without due diligence.

    Best wishes.

  7. I think he point is being somewhat missed. Whether a “religion” is a cult or not has nothing to do with beliefs, it’s all about tactics. How the religion is spread, what repercussions may fall on people who leave the faith, and how members are treated.

    Many religions probably started as cults, but can no longer be called a cult. Early Christianity probably was a cult. Many religions have held onto some of their cultish apsects, like Mennonites and Amish shunning, Mormons’ missions, Catholics’ recitation of the rosary, etc. But that doesn’t make them cults. You would be hard-pressed to argue that scientology is not a cult though, it’s far different.

    These other religions don’t require payment to reveal their catechism. They don’t seek to destroy ex-members or critics or engage in the type of mind control that scientologists do. It’s a fine line.

  8. Good points, mvj.

    I think the other aspect with the definition of a cult is that they tend to revolve around human personalities rather than divine characteristics. It is accepted in the Christian religions that Jesus is the divine, so putting him at the center is to look to a higher power for inspiration. If you put someone like Mr. David Miscavige at the center, or even begin to put celebrities in general in the spotlight, you lose the divine element that separates cults from religions.

  9. A cult is a small religious organizations that is misunderstood or feared by older, and more established “religions”. Sometimes cults revolve around a person. It seems to me that the difference in most people’s minds to whether a particular faith is a cult or a religion is the amount of fear they hold about it. Jesus didn’t start Christianity and he wasn’t a Christian. Jesus told his followers to look inside them and find the “Kingdom of God”, the indwelling divine spirit of god in man. For the first few centuries this radical idea was seen as a cult because people feared the message and the followers of this new idea were persecuted as followers of any cult often are. Then something changed. The message of this cult changed. It was no longer to find the divine within yourself without the need for anyone telling you what to do (ie, a church or religion), and the religion became one of worshipping Jesus and forgetting most of what he said. Once this cult started worshipping Jesus as God, it became a religion because people needed to belong to the religion to receive its promised benefits. In my humble opinion, the teachings of Jesus (as best we know them) spurned a cult movement that threatened the religious establishments of the day – the very definition of a cult. Then it morphed into a religion ABOUT the God Jesus, gained a mass following, and became a religion. It seems to me the difference is in how many people join in. There is a tipping point in which the radical becomes the conventional and that’s when a cult becomes a religion.

    To the point someone made earlier about how cults use mind control and punish those that leave the fold…. Have you ever tried to leave a fundamentalist Christian organization or been the lone person in your family that does not accept fundamentalist Christianity? The believers will work very hard to convince you to return to their way of thinking (or non-thinking called believing) and if you refuse, you are told that you must not be allowed to influence others and are therefore cast out. In their opinion, you have been told the one truth in all of the universe and rejected it, therefore it is you who turned your back on God and are beyond redemption. This very idea that you can ever be cut off from God is, once again, the opposite of what Jesus taught.

    There was another comment above about how good religion is because it helps us ask the eternal human questions of why and how and what the purpose of life is, etc? Those questions are hard-wired into humanity and have NOTHING to do with religion. Religion comes along to answer those questions and it is the answers I have a problem with. The questioning is a natural part of the human spiritual experience. Religions for the most part give terrible “answers” to those questions that injure and retard the spiritual growth of followers.

    Jesus spoke in parables to the masses to avoid interference from the establishment while he spread his radical ideas. Since the establishment could not contain those radical ideas by opposing them, they co-opted them, turned Jesus into a God, and then told people to worship him. From cult to religion in a mere 300 years.

    With the rise of technology in the 21st century, I wouldn’t count Scientology out just yet…. I think its an awful, awful thing, but as long as people have the money to buy into it, it will continue to grow. The truth about its secret doctrines have all been revealed and yet people still adhere to it.

  10. AssMaster,

    You make some very interesting and valid points, but in their critisism they lack the Devine. Christ performed miracles as part of his ministry; not as proof, his time was short and he knew that. If curing a boys crippled leg brought his whole family to hear his message, so be it. (but, who can understand the workings of God)

    Now what we have today about the Bible and its history are interpretations, but thats what faith is when reading it. It doesn’t ask me to kill or steal from my neighbour; but to love them. (that one law that Jesus asked to be followed absolved the yoke of sin set by the 10 commandments)

    Christianity didn’t rise from nowhere, it was a grafting from Judism. Jesus’ edification of what the spiritual leaders were doing is what was brought into question among those leaders at the time. To stop a mob from stoning a woman to death by simply saying “He who is without sin, cast the first stone” .. you’re right, thats pretty radical. Because of teachings like this he threatened both the spiritual and governing leaders of the time and was seen as an anarchist. (Yet to the Romans he wasn’t much a threat at all)

    I’m sorry if my post debates yours AssMaster, but it was the last post I read. Thats all.

    As far as the initial thread about what defines a religious organisation and a cult.

    Does majoritory rule? – The Vatican, the rishest city in the world. It has a bloody and greedy history. It is run like a business; yet being the cornerstone of the second largest religion in the world is is unquestioned. Yet it attacks minoritories publicly. Its’ ruling leader(s) governs the thoughts of millions upon millions.

    Scientology asks for expensive payment for its’ “spiritual healing” and even endorses slavery as a method of payment. Its’ methods of practice are so secretive that people not part of its’ organisation are in infrigment of copyright when trying to bring those methods to the publics eye.

    Yet some governments give this organisation tax exemption. Even though its founding members were jailed for illegal activities such as wire taps of govenment agencies. When denied tax exemption the whole organisation was given a make over, centre of operations were name changed into “temples” ect.

    When it comes down to it, religion or cult. Its’ personal choice. If you’re in fear of influence upon your children at a young age, educate them.

    I think in todays society it comes down to tolerance when definig a cult from a legitimate religious organisation. The problem is that everyone is tolerent of everything.

  11. AssMaster,

    I agree with much of what you wrote. However, you ended with:
    “I think [Scientology is] an awful, awful thing, but as long as people have the money to buy into it, it will continue to grow. The truth about its secret doctrines have all been revealed and yet people still adhere to it.”

    Sadly, although you’ve clearly looked beyond the party line (and the surface) of what Jesus and Christianity are all about, you don’t seem to have given Scientology the same fair shake. The reason Scientologists continue to adhere to Scientology and that it continues to attract new members is simply because the “secret doctrines” have nothing to do with Scientology.

    You have simply bought into the hype (and the out-of-context criticism) from the Scientology detractors.

    But you seem capable of looking beyond hype in other subjects … so I have faith that you can do the same with Scientology.

  12. Religion is for the bored, scared and intellectually lazy.


    The secret most un-exposed about Scientology is that is it an “Applied Physiological Philosophy” rather than an “Applied Religious Philosophy”. All Scientology courses, all auditing processes, and all the management and professional courses are based on physiological phenomenas, psychophysiology, emotions, human behavior patterns etc., that are our birth right and used in Scientology as their own discoveries. Even their PTS-SP data is based upon how a “Symptom” re-stimulation is brought out by physiological reactions of the mind affecting the body when under stress. They blame innocent human beings called by them “suppressive persons” for bringing out a symptom that was there to warn you of hidden real illnesses caused by non-suppressive sources such as parasites, chemicals, poisons, toxins, viruses and bacteria. The data on PTS-SP is twisted by them to blame innocent people in order to keep them in line.

    The only way to fight the “Greatest Scam on Earth” is to expose to the world–how Scientology has used physiological phenomenas as the basis for a false religion. How it has harmed families by claiming that innocent mothers and fathers are SPs — when they lied about symptom re-stimulations to the world.

    No where in Scientology will you find courses or services on any bible, there is no study or belief in heaven, hell, saints, angels, the devil, or even God himself. They do not study religion or even believe in religions. They do not share common values with any other religion. Their goal is to eliminate all other religions.

    Because of its many crimes against humanity, the cult of Scientology does not and never had the moral, religious or political right to be called a true “Church”.

    The E-meter reads your physiological reactions, the Ronbots never calls it that—they call it the “CHARGE” or the “MASS” or “ENGRAMS” OR “MENTAL IMAGE PICTURES” that you have in your brain—all meant to distract you from the truth.

    Know this fact — There is a law of Nature or law of God called “Physiological Reactions” that is the true secret behind Scientology’s Dianectic study technology.

    AUDITING ERASES AND LESSONS YOUR PHYSIOLOGICAL REACTIONS!!! Once they are gone – your symptoms can’t be re-stimulated by stress or arguments. This is NOT a good thing, because ALL doctors depend on symptoms to guide them in treating you! This is why they prohibit you from seeing the doctors of your choice!!! Understand now how the scam works? Now when you argue with your mother and don’t get sick – you think she was the cause of all your illnesses.

    If you were audited a hundred times over and over again (repetitive auditing) for a word that you were ordered to never clear or understand, and then made to read a page that contained that word—it would never again read on the Emeter or cause a physiological reaction.
    Both Psychiatry and Scientology treats the symptoms of the mind and not the real causes of mental illnesses, one with drugs and one with erasing physiological reactions called Engrams or mental image pictures! Which one is worst? Drugs you can stop, but the other is irreversible and also a dangerous and deadly scam.

    With the knowledge about physiological reactions as the base of Scientology, contained here, psychiatry will defeat $cientology easily.

    LRH discovered that when you passed a misunderstood word—you manifested many reactions of various types: Yawning, sleepiness, not there feeling, dizziness, blurry eyes, nervousness and dozens more.

    Being the liar that he was, he claimed that physiological reactions which he now calls “Dianetics” was “‘his” invention and not a law of God; he hid the fact that it is our human inheritance since time began.

    Granted that his power of obnosis (observation) was the best in the world, his crime against humanity was to make a “religion” based upon the falsehood, that it was his very own invention or creation and not a law of God belonging to all Humanity as their lawful right.

    For proof that the Cult has lied to you: — Google “L. Ron Hubbard and Physiological Reactions” or visit their own Godless websites: or

    LRH used God’s Natural laws to make slaves of mankind!

    “So long as a physiological phenomenon remains the knowledge of a few and is denied to the many it can be utilized to control the many.” LRH (from Journal of Scientology Issue 4-G from Oct. 1952)

    “This universe has long been looking for new ways to make slaves. Well, we’ve got some new ways to make slaves here.” LRH (from PDC tape lecture #20 “Formative State of Scientology, Definition of Logic”, given on 6 Dec 52)

    “All men shall be my slaves! LRH

    All women shall submit to my charms! LRH

    All mankind shall grovel at my feet and not know why!” [L. Ron Hubbard, “Affirmations”, late 1940s] Affirmations, exhibits 500-4D, E, F & G. See Church of Scientology v Armstrong, transcript volume 11, p.1886.

    “Somebody some day will say ‘this is illegal’.
    By then be sure the orgs say what is legal or not.”
    L. Ron Hubbard, HCOPL 4 January 1966

    “THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM”. You can write that down in your book in great big letters. The only way you can control anybody is to lie to them.” – L. Ron Hubbard, “Off the Time Track,” lecture of June 1952, excerpted in JOURNAL OF SCIENTOLOGY issue 18-G, reprinted in TECHNICAL VOLUMES OF DIANETICS & SCIENTOLOGY, vol. 1, p. 418

    “Scientology…is not a religion.” – L. Ron Hubbard, CREATION OF HUMAN ABILITY, 1954, p. 251

    L. Ron Hubbard’s religion before he discovered physiological reactions was “Satanism”.
    He wanted to invent a new religion masked as being good, but in fact its goals were totally evil so that he could take his place on the “Throne of the Beast,” which he firmly believed himself to be the rightful heir. Being an evil Satanist he wanted to destroy all other religions and have Scientology as the only religion left on Earth. He wanted to be the RULER of the NEW WORLD ORDER and sit on the Throne of the Beast.

    All living beings have physiological (The functions and activities of life or of living matter such as the organic processes of organs, tissues, or cells) phenomenas (observable reactions known through the senses rather than by thought or intuition), or physical manifestations (made evident by showing or displaying) or physical reactions, that we see or feel as symptoms, and they are external and/or internal or visible signs or warnings given to us, by our creator to help us survive, help us increase our potential, our knowledge and our health.
    All life on Earth has these cause and effect reactions called physiological phenomenas. All living beings whether they are plant, insect, retile or animal or human could not live without these reactions. They influence the body’s and the mind’s reactions to any form of stimuli, and have an influence on every cell of the body and mind.
    [Noun. Physiological reaction – Is an automatic instinctive unlearned reaction to a stimulus.]
    [Examples of physiological reactions: inborn reflex, innate reflex, instinctive reflex, reflex response, unconditioned reflex, accommodation reflex, Babinski reflex, belching, headache, migraines, swelling, sweating, erections, blinking, blushing, burping, defecation reflex, disgorgement, involuntary eye blinking, farting, skin flush, gag reflex, goose bump, goose pimple, gooseflesh, involuntary gulping, involuntary hiccup, knee-jerk reflex, light reflex, puking, papillary reflex, rectal reflex, regurgitation, shaking, shiver, shock, sneezing, startle, stretch reflex, suckling reflex, trembling, upset stomach, vomiting, involuntary winking, yawn, yawning — plus hundreds more.]
    Ron studied Physiological reactions more than most scientists and applied it to invent a new Religion.
    He did not invent but copied the laws of nature and scammed the whole world into thinking that he alone discovered these reactions and no one else did. What he did do – was noticed the reactions of students and from this scam invented Dianetics “study tech”.
    Examples of Physiological reactions of the body and mind when reading:
    Falling asleep while reading – yawning, confusion, feeling blank, feeling anxious, not there feeling, tearing eyes, eyes going out of focus, dizziness, reeling, rebelliousness, headaches, skipping words, feeling nauseous, fidgeting, jumpy while reading, can’t stay still, mispronouncing words, feeling as if you are squashed, feeling as if you are over-whelmed, twitching, can’t apply what you are reading, can’t understand what you are reading, etc. are all due to physiological reactions when you read misunderstood words or misunderstood definitions.
    The Cult’s method of healing called “Touch Assist” is nothing more than erasing the physiological reactions of PAIN. Physiological reactions are the clues from the law of God called “The Law of Cause and Effect”; for every action there is a reaction. A complete understanding of these two laws of God can be used to learn to self-heal.
    To understand the sinful secrets of your enemy –is to know exactly where to hurt him.
    Scientology’s copyrighted files on based upon the laws of Nature and laws of God; they are in violation of copyrights and patent rights. Therefore, the contents or subjects can be used by anyone and can be talked about without fear of any lawsuit.
    Another scam hidden from the World is the Cult’s deal with the IRS, When LRH died he surrendered his writings to ex-IRS agents to keep Scientology alive for ever. The Cult’s Copyrights are now the property of US Federal government. So Scientology is the only religion that is owned by the IRS. But the fact is that the IRS is owned and/or controlled by the Federal Reserve—which we are all slaves to.
    Everything you do produces a reaction in your body and mind. Every time you read, eat, sleep, rest, run, etc. produces a reaction.
    To tell your mother that you invented a new religion, because you discovered why you farted, is a good example of the scam that Ron pulled on you. He got away with it because the world did not see these reactions as they applied to reading. Or if some scientist saw and knew it—he did not protest it and allowed a Cult to claim it as their own new discovery.
    If you want to destroy the cult, study your own reactions each time you do something—learn to read yourself and use your own power of obnosis to discover the real world within and around you.
    Yours truly

    All Rights Reserved.

    Copyright Ronbothunter— All Rights Reserved, Without Prejudice UCC 1-308 & 1-103.6 including rights under the UCC and common law remedies. I reserve my right not to be compelled to perform under any contract or commercial agreement that I did not personally sign and enter knowingly, voluntarily and intentionally and especially if I was not given full disclosure. I do not accept the liability of the compelled benefit of any unrevealed contract or commercial agreement.


    The Scientologists still under the mind control of the anti-God Cult’s Ronbot staff, still have not received full disclosure on the facts that Ex-Scientologists now know about THE GREATEST SCAM ON EARTH!!.

    The Ronbots still in the Anti-God Cult are not allowed to question ANYTHING and are not allowed to research anything. Yet they are encouraged under the Fair-Game policy to hurt, harm, sue, slander, attack, hit, abuse, libel, lie, scam, rob, etc. or even kill Ex-Scientologists or their own families who dare to expose the facts and the truth.

    These Ronbots—now called ZOMBIES AND SCILONS by the non-ex-scientology public, are used as sacrificial lambs by the Cult to open groundless and frivolous lawsuits only designed to destroy and make the ex-Scientologists and the public afraid to expose them.

    But “Ronbot Hunters” are now learning the UCC and Common law remedies to stop and destroy the Godless Ronbots — who allowed un-ethical lawsuits to be made in their names.

    The Ronbots use the anti-God “Fair-Game” policy to destroy Ex-Scientologists, innocent mothers and fathers and now Ronbot Hunters are learning to use the Constitution and Commercial remedies, contract laws and the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) to protect their rights.


    The fact that fanatical Ronbots are not allowed to read what they will or desire, tells you that the Cult fears knowledge of the truth.

    But the truth can only be exposed by “the statements of the majority”, with personal first hand knowledge of Scientology.

    Since Ronbots never know all the facts, their statements in defense of the Cult is biased, because they are prohibited from research of the facts – their opinions are also invalid.

    To learn the truth — you must learn what the MAJORITY of free-minded Ex-Scientologists claim.

    They claim this well known fact—that the Church of Scientology is a GODLESS CULT.

    They also claim that the Study technology of Dianetics was stolen from two laws of nature. Physiological Reactions and the laws of Cause and Effect.

    This evil anti-god cult has its own Navy and armed bases, CIA type agencies, saboteurs, assassins, bullies to hit and set you up, infiltrators and spies in other churches and in the government. They have brain-washed Ronbots with weapons of mass destruction (fully automatic) just ready to blow you away. They are dangerous to all mankind and to all real religions of the world.

    Do not fear to learn what both sides have to say on any issue. Always seek full disclosure on everything.

    Read what Ex-Scientologists have to say, find out what the MAJORITY CLAIMS.

    Find the truth and never allow others to tell you what to think, do or say. Always seek out the truth — even if you will be fired or kicked-out from the Cult.

    Don’t be a ZOMBIE – use your own self-determinism –dare to demand the truth!!!


    Sincerely yours,

    All Rights Reserved

  15. […] News by (bryan clark […]

  16. Can a First Century Christian be part of a cult?

    Mormons Are New Testament Christians, not Creedal Christians

    The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is sometimes accused of being a “cult”.. I’ll try to clear up such misconceptions by examining early Christianity’s theology relating to baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.


    Early Christian churches, practiced baptism of youth (not infants) by immersion by the father of the family. The local congregation had a lay ministry. An early Christian Church has been re-constructed at the Israel Museum, and the above can be verified. The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continues baptism and a lay ministry as taught by Jesus’ Apostles. Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred, and prohibiting non-Christians from witnessing them.

    The Trinity:

    A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration? The Nicene Creed”s definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin. The scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity , which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The oldest versions of the epistle of 1 John, read: “There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one.” Scribes later added “the Father, the Word and the Spirit,” and it remained in the epistle when it was translated into English for the King James Version, according to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Chairman of the Religion Department at UNC- Chapel Hill. He no longer believes in the Nicene Trinity. . Scholars agree that Early Christians believed in an embodied God; it was neo-Platonist influences that later turned Him into a disembodied Spirit. Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.” The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) views the Trinity as three separate divine beings , in accord with the earliest Greek New Testament manuscripts.


    Divinization, narrowing the space between God and humans, was also part of Early Christian belief. St. Athanasius of Alexandria (Eastern Orthodox) wrote, regarding theosis, “The Son of God became man, that we might become God.” . The Gospel of Thomas (which pre-dates the 4 Gospels, but was considered non-canonical by the Nicene Council) quotes the Savior: “He who will drink from my mouth will become as I am: I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him,” (Gospel of Thomas 50, 28-30, Nag Hammadi Library in English, J.M.Robinson, 1st ed 1977; 3rd ed. 1988) The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) agrees with Athanasius and Thomas regarding theosis.

    In the words of an LDS Apostle, Bruce R. McConkie: “There is and can only be one who is supreme, who is the head and to who all the others are subject”. Becoming like God is not saying we will ever by equal to him, frankly we won’t and can’t. He, and only He, will forever be worshipped by us.

    The Deity of Jesus Christ

    Mormons hold firmly to the deity of Christ. For members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS), Jesus is not only the Son of God but also God the Son. Evangelical pollster George Barna found in 2001 that while only 33 percent of American Catholics, Lutherans, and Methodists (28 percent of Episcopalians) agreed that Jesus was “without sin”, 70 percent of Mormons believe Jesus was sinless.

    The Cross and Christ’s Atonement:

    The Cross became popular as a Christian symbol in the Fifth Century A.D. . Members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) believe the proper Christian symbol is Christ’s resurrection , not his crucifixion on the Cross. Many Mormon chapels feature paintings of the resurrected Christ or His Second Coming. Furthermore, members of the church believe the major part of Christ’s atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane as Christ took upon him the sins of all mankind.

    Definition of “Christian”: .

    But Mormons don’t term Catholics and Protestants “non-Christian”. They believe Christ’s atonement applies to all mankind. The dictionary definition of a Christian is “of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ”: All of the above denominations are followers of Christ, and consider him divine, and the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament. They all worship the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and address Him in prayer as prescribed in The Lord’s Prayer. It’s important to understand the difference between Reformation and Restoration when we consider who might be authentic Christians. . Early Christians had certain rituals which defined a Christian , which members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continue today. . If members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) embrace early Christian theology, they are likely more “Christian” than their detractors.

    • The Need for a Restoration of the Christian Church:

    The founder of the Baptist Church in America, Roger Williams, just prior to leaving the church he established, said this: “There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking.” (Picturesque America, p. 502.) Martin Luther had similar thoughts: “Nor can a Christian believer be forced beyond sacred Scriptures,…unless some new and proved revelation should be added; for we are forbidden by divine law to believe except what is proved either through the divine Scriptures or through Manifest revelation.” He also wrote: “I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been not only corrupted by sin, but absolutely destroyed; so that there is now nothing in them but a depraved reason and a will that is the enemy and opponent of God. I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it.” The Lutheran, Baptist and Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) churches recognize an apostasy from early Christianity. The Lutheran and Baptist churches have attempted reform, but Mormonism (and Roger Williams, and perhaps Martin Luther) require inspired restoration, so as to re-establish an unbroken line of authority and apostolic succession.
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .* * *

    • Christ-Like Lives:

    The 2005 National Study of Youth and Religion published by UNC-Chapel Hill found that Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) youth (ages 13 to 17) were more likely to exhibit these Christian characteristics than Evangelicals (the next most observant group):

    1. Attend Religious Services weekly
    2. Importance of Religious Faith in shaping daily life – extremely important
    3. Believes in life after death
    4. Does NOT believe in psychics or fortune-tellers
    5. Has taught religious education classes
    6. Has fasted or denied something as spiritual discipline
    7. Sabbath Observance
    8. Shared religious faith with someone not of their faith
    9. Family talks about God, scriptures, prayer daily
    10. Supportiveness of church for parent in trying to raise teen (very supportive)
    11. Church congregation has done an excellent job in helping teens better understand their own sexuality and sexual morality

    LDS Evangelical
    1. 71% 55%
    2. 52 . . 28
    3. 76 . .62
    4. 100 . 95
    5. 42 . . 28
    6. 68 . . 22
    7. 67 . . 40
    8. 72 . . 56
    9. 50 . . 19
    10 65 . . 26
    11 84 . . 35

    So what do you think the motivation is for the Evangelical preachers to denigrate the Mormon Church? You would think Evangelical preachers would be emulating Mormon practices (a creed to believe, a place to belong, a calling to live out, and a hope to hold onto) which were noted by Methodist Rev. Kenda Creasy Dean of the Princeton Theological Seminary, as causing Mormon teenagers to “top the charts” in Christian characteristics. It seems obvious pastors shouldn’t be denigrating a church based on First Century Christianity, with high efficacy..

    Further Reading:

  17. You people have gone astray from the original question, that is, what is the difference between a religion and a cult?

    It is an easy question to answer – Cults involve founders or other individuals who use a belief system for personal gain, whether it be financial, political, or personal. They also practice many of their beliefs behind a shroud of secrecy.

    Hubbard invented Scientology as a means to gain financial wealth, and Scientology uses their belief system as a means to raise funds to this day. It is definitely a cult.

    LDS was started by Joseph Smith as a means to justify his crimes and lifestyle. The whole story of how he was given the Book of Mormon is absurd at best, and many of the symbols and signs he claimed were in the book have been shown to be existing heiroglyphs. And one of the main assertions of the Book of Mormon, that American Indians are the lost tribe of Israel, has been shown to be false through DNA testing. It is also a cult, and a very large one at that.

    Most of the other so called Christian religions may not be cults, but they have very cult-like beliefs. Jehovah.s Witnesses, 7th Day Adventists, and Evangelicals all concentrate their belief systems on limited passages of the Bible and/or obscure interpretations of Biblical passages. No Christian religion follows the teachings of Christ as they are expressed in the Gospels. If they did, they would spend a lot less time and money building up their churches and a lot more time and effort helping the poor, the needy, and the sick. Instead, most religions exist only to perpetuate their own beliefs, and not to do the work of Jesus and God.

    Those of you who don’t understand how harmful and dangerous this is need to be reminded that Charles Manson justified what he did on his interpretation of the Book of Revelations.

  18. I only have this to say:
    Jesus is our Savior
    God is our Father and creator of our souls
    the Holy Ghost is our comforter and bad vs good meter
    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the restored gospel of our maker.
    The devil is real, and he’s got a hold on this world-but God is real too and good will always win over evil
    So, I do not fear Obama and his minions-I only pity them and any one that follows anything that takes them away from God’s wonderful loving plan for us
    Man+Woman=eternal happiness for all, especially their children!!!
    God bless to all

  19. To Fawn:

    And Man+Woman+Woman+Woman… = even better eternal happiness.

  20. […] The Fireside Post […]

  21. Dear Mr. Mike,

    Your arguments regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are flawed.

    That “LDS was started by Joseph Smith as a means to justify his crimes and lifestyle” is simply a lie that was widely spread by his contemporaries who felt threatened by the rapid growth of the church, mostly for political reasons. Jesus was similarly maligned and persecuted. And like Jesus, Joseph Smith at just 39 years of age, turned himself over to the authorities knowing full well that he would never see his friends and family again. His farewell to them is sweet and poignant. You should read it. He was murdered a few days later by an angry mob. Such selfless behavior is not consistent with a criminal or liar.

    You claim that “the whole story of how he was given the Book of Mormon is absurd at best.” This is a question of faith and as it can neither be proven nor disproven, doesn’t merit such criticism. Every religion has peculiarities that to an outsider will appear strange. To call them “absurd” is pejorative and says more about the observer than the observed.

    You state that “many of the symbols and signs he claimed were in the book have been shown to be existing hieroglyphs.” This supports the claims made by Joseph Smith.

    “And one of the main assertions of the Book of Mormon, that American Indians are the lost tribe of Israel, has been shown to be false through DNA testing.” Unlike Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith was not perfect. We do not worship him nor believe that everything he said is true and correct. That being said, we know that the people described in the Book of Mormon were not the only inhabitants of the ancient Americas. And the Book of Mormon itself asserts that a great war almost completely destroyed the societies it described. Perhaps the remnant of those people eventually mixed with much more numerous ethnic Asians. DNA evidence of that may yet be discovered. Then again, perhaps the science is just wrong. Science has been wrong before. And even conclusions drawn from sound science are often based partially on unprovable assumptions taken to true by consensus. That does not make them infallible.

    It is my blunt opinion that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is generally dismissed as a cult by older and more established religions because its very active and successful missionary program directly affects their membership. This church has no paid clergy. That frightens the leaders of other religions who depend on the donations of their faithful for their livelihood. Unfortunately, they resort to lies and distortions to dissuade their members from ever giving it any consideration. Nevertheless, the Lord’s sheep recognize their Master’s voice in the words of the Book of Mormon and in the teachings of His modern day prophets. They are not deceived.


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